Last week I let you know that you are the Ilium Software advisory board. When we’re trying to determine the best course of action, we really listen to our customers. That said, we’ve got an assignment for you.
As you know we’ve been planning to release ListPro on the iPhone. Working with a contractor, we actually made quite a bit of progress. Of course ListPro, even though relatively simply to use, is an extremelycomplex piece of software. Anytime you offer the level of customization that ListPro does, you’re looking at a ton of work. Throw synching into the mix and you’re talking about a monumental task.
That said we’re faced with a bit of a dilemma and we want to get your feedback. So if you’re up to the challenge, read on after the jump!
The Challenges We’re Facing
At this point, were facing a number of tough challenges. Here’s what we’ve got:
1: Behind Schedule
ListPro for iPhone is running behind schedule. While we had expected an August release, we now find ourselves looking at a release with limited functionality closer to early next year. (BTW – Part of the reason I’m talking about this is for you folks waiting eagerly for it – I want to make sure that any expectations we give you are real ones.)
2: Boatloads of Competition
Had we hit the August release date, ListPro would have been an early entrant into the list maker/task manager market. Now, list makers in the AppStore are as numerous as tip calculators. This “business issue” affects our customers indirectly. If we release ListPro and it fails to make enough money to maintain it, you’re going to end up stuck with version 1.0 and that will be that. Furthermore, ListPro is a huge investment to develop which means it has to do really well for us not to lose money on it!
3: User Interface Limitations
ListPro on other platforms makes heavy use of drop down menus, right clicks, sub-menus, and more. It relies on these to present all the needed tools for customizing lists. The iPhone doesn’t lend itself to this style of UI. We’re pretty creative over here so we’ve got some good ideas, but the overall experience is a bit more complex (in a full featured iPhone version of ListPro) than anything else on the device.
4: Synching is Vital
With eWallet, you made it clear to us that sync is a vital component of the software. Couple this with the iffy (but hopefully fixed in 2.1) upgrade process at the AppStore, and we have the potential for problems. This means that the project really MUST include some form of sync on the date of release.
The Solutions
We have two solutions that we’re looking at right now. What I’d like from all of you is your thoughts on these solutions as well as any other ideas you might have.
Solution #1: ListPro Reader
In this solution, we release a simplified ‘companion’ to the ListPro desktop software. Depending on the level of functionality, it might even be free. This application would allow you to:
- Publish lists from the desktop over to your phone where you can read them
- Check/Flag items on the phone
- Sort, search, and filter
- Click live URL links
- Changes would not sync back to the desktop and there would be no other editing tools.
Advantages: Besides the fact that it would be free (you’d still need to buy the desktop version), it would take a LOT less time to develop this. We’d still be looking at a release date late this year at best, probably early next year, but it would be ready a lot sooner than a full featured version. In addition, it would lend itself very well to the simple UI common on the iPhone. Finally, it doesn’t try to compete directly with the gazillion list makers out there. It’s almost a portable database reader.
Disadvantages:It isn’t a full featured list maker and it doesn’t have all the features of ListPro. Also, it might fail to bring any new users to ListPro. It might even confuse people. A new iPhone product can’t work if it doesn’t bring in new users as well as carry existing users over.
The Future:If the product does poorly, we can still keep it out there for long time ListPro users, offering minor updates as needed. We’d still take a hit from the development costs but it wouldn’t be huge. If the product does well, on the other hand, we could slowly expand functionality over time – perhaps even offering true list making tools in the future.
Solution #2: Full Featured ListPro on the iPhone
In this solution, we do what we’d hoped to do before – port ListPro completely to the iPhone. In addition, we’d include synchronization letting users sync their files back and forth.
Advantages: We could offer all the cool stuff that has made ListPro so popular over the years to a new audience. In addition, we could help all out existing ListPro folks make a smooth transition to iPhone. Finally, I could use all my personal ListPro lists on my phone! 
Woot! IF the product sold well it could become a major part of our business in the years to come.
Disadvantages: It would take a long time. My conservative guess would be middle of next year. Also, this would be very expensive to build. There is a very real danger that new iPhone users won’t care about ListPro’s power and want nothing more than a simple maker (half of which are free.) If this happened, we’d probably end up losing money. Finally, the app might be so complex to operate on the iPhone that all that power makes it unusable.
The Future: If the full featured version doesn’t do as well or better than eWallet, this would be the first and last version. We just couldn’t afford to continue development. If it does well, we’d have another great platform supporting ListPro into the future.
So there you have it…
Your first assignment! Let us know what you think. How would you handle it if you were the Product Manager here at Ilium Software? We really look forward to your input.
Twitter
First, I appreciate the way in which you honestly communicate with your customers.
I have struggled without ListPro for quite some time now (now that I use an iPhone)…
I must say that I would be happy (in the short term) to have a listpro viewer….
When the full version comes, which I am anxious for… I really think that it will need to have Cloud syncing… in addition to syncing using SyncPro.
This way, two people could share the same list, and each time the person opens the list, an auto sync is performed, downloading/unchecking/etc.. any items that were not previously on the list..
a great scenario would be this..
I am going to the grocery store, but my wife remembers she needs one more item.. she could simply open Listpro on the PC at home, add the item, sync, and when I open Listpro on my iphone, I sync, and poof! I have her newly added item… I think that’s important.. especially since there is at least one other company that already has an iphone app that does that.. ( I believe.. unless it is more of a WebApp.. but I don’t think so..)
I thank you kindly, for taking time to read my response.
Mike Mullaney
(Future Beta tester of iPHone apps..)
I’d favour solution 1 – purely from the point of view that it gets a product out sooner and offers some of the flexibility of ListPro. Changes not syncing back to the desktop would be a turn-off though. As a potential new user for ListPro, I’d want two way syncing. Since enhancements could still be added in the future, I’d hope that this would be the first!
Solution 2 does sound a high risk option, and given the time until it could be available I’d worry that it would be very difficult for you to compete with more established competitors by then.
[...] Ilium Software added an interesting post today on Advisory Board Assignment #1 – ListPro for iPhoneHere’s a small reading … hoped to do before – port ListPro completely to the iPhone….1: Behind Schedule ListPro for iPhone is running behind schedule….A new iPhone product can’t work if it doesn’t bring in new users as well as carry existing users over….As you know we’ve been planning to release ListPro on the iPhone…. [...]
Oh, and I should have added – I’d be hoping that the desktop software also included a Mac version!
Thanks for being honest about time scales etc!
My major issue with the iphone at this time (having come from a ppc) is that most of the applications are rather basic to say the least – this includes the built in apps as well as most of the app store apps.
All of the list apps appear to be too basic compared to listpro. The idea of a reader does appeal if we get it sooner, however a fuller version would be preferred. Although if it is too difficult to use it would in my opinion fail. The apple iphone OS is very pretty and does basic things very elegantly. BUT push it and it falls behing the ppc architecture. I am sure the apple fans will flame me for this but its true!
Your future success is going to be from power users – most of who will be enterprise users. Get it right (as you have with ewallet) and you will clean up. Produce something barely improving on the app store offerings and you may struggle in my opinion. Quality pays off!
Simon
Great feedback so far. Thanks everyone!
@Michael: Great comments. The grocery store scenario is one of my long term goals for ListPro!
@Karen: Thanks for the honesty about synching. As for Mac, we are looking at this but in all honesty it would depend on the success of the application with Windows. If we can’t generate a strong enough market with iPhone + Windows, expanding to Mac (very costly) would just not be possible.
@Simon: Thanks Simon. They can flame you if you like, but it’s true. The WM UI is geared towards complex interface architectures. Drop down menus, tap+hold, stylus control, nested menus. They all lend themselves toward the support of a complex set of functions. WM really does handle this scenario well.
Hello,
I believe, that I use ListPro from on of the first releases. First on the PC an later with PC and PocketPC. I love ListPro and I use it every day in office and at home. It was absolutely great,when I could sync my ListPro-files in office with my PC and the PPC and synch these files again at Home to my private PC.
I think, the best way without any big risk is to publish at first the “reader-version” of ListPro (unfortunatelly for me!!) and then – depending on numbers of LitPro-users and numbers of requests for a full version – you can decide to realize the full version (I hope so!!).
I hope my english was good enough to explain my opinion.
best regards from Germay
Norbert
Hi Marc I’d go with 1) as a ListPro Lite viewer, mainly to get the application out there and so the product is known. At least folks could then sync their lists in the interim.
I think two way sync would be important though.
Sadly I have only used the trial version of Listpro desktop, just to check out. I really liked what I saw. But held off from purchasig it until there was a way of viewing/using the lists on the iPhone. So right now I would pick option 1 with the hopes of a more robust version to follow. If I had an option 1 iphone app available then I would for sure purchase the desktop version.
I’ve been an ewallet user for years and love the iPhone version. So I know I would be happy with any listpro version I could get for the iPhone.
Thanks
Sam
First, let me echo other comments about how incredibly up front you folks are being about this whole decision process. I really appreciate the honesty…
I bought an iPhone (moving from a PPC) in spite of the lack of Listpro, encouraged by the eWallet transition. It was a difficult decision, and I did it with the expectation that at some point I would have access to the full features of Listpro. The list programs that are currently out there can’t hold a candle to Listpro, and I have a lot (a lot!) of lists I do not want to have to recreate. I think that if you are to make this effort, your target users (and your future success) are the power users who want more than the simpler offerings from other producers.
Having said that, I would settle for the first solution *if* the second were to follow. It doesn’t sound like that type of parallel path approach is what you’re talking about, though, so if I had to choose, I would prefer the second.
Lastly, I’m a usability consultant (I design interfaces for a living) and I’d be happy to give you some help free of charge, since it’s clearly in my own best interests to do so
Re Options 1 v 2, I vote for 2. Option 1 sounds beguiling and lower risk, but the magic sauce is ‘two-way sync-ing’. Without it, Lispro risks failure for the wrong reason (marketing suicide).
Long ago, I used ListPro and eWaller on my iPaq and fell in love with both. Now I am Mac + Iphone and so, unfortunately, until we have Mac versions of the app,s I cannot jump aboard.
Finally, in my opinion ListPro will find a strong market above flock of simple list apps. Nothing that I have seen comes close. The time it will take you to develop ListPro tells the story: all of the current list apps look like they were quick to develop. Your product will stand out.
Marc,
I don’t have an iPhone, so I’m not sure how much my input counts, but here’s my $0.02 anyway.
You should survey your List Pro registered users (more than this question here.) Really just a few questions: Do you own an iPhone, how much would you pay for an iPhone version (5, 10, 15), given these 10 features, rank them. This should help you to decide if the more complicated version makes sense for you economically.
I like the free reader idea regardless. I almost never do more than check off items on my WM phone. I do 95%+ of the list authoring on my PC.
Rick
(still keeping my fingers crossed for a Mac version of eWallet this year.)
First, thanks for the honest update.
I’ve been waiting for ListPro for iPhone since I got my iPhone in July. A “ListPro Viewer” just won’t cut it for me as I require the full database capabilities in my database app as I use ListPro for shopping lists, wish lists, errands lists, etc. If I cannot check off things on the fly and have them sync back to the desktop, then it’s a deal killer for me.
The flip side to that is neither can I wait until the middle of next year for this. As much as I regret this, if my choices with ListPro are to wait another 4 – 8 months minimum for the full functionality or continue carrying my Treo around for this, it’s time for me to find a replacement database/list managment program.
I would dearly love to see a fully-featured ListPro for the iPhone and can appreciate your dilema.
How about looking at the best of the list managers currently out there and perhaps going for a joint-venture approach with their developer? It should cut development time and share any risk.
My other thought is to go-it-alone and create the full product on the proviso that we all understand it will be a long time in development. You could even ask us for an upfront donation, say a few dollars each. We’d all feel good about that and know that at some point next year we’d have a fantastic list manager we all know and love and have ListPro set the standard on the App Store.
I have already so many lists in Listpro, made on my former PocketPc and my Pc.
To be honest: I bought the Iphone because Iliumsoft promised to make an Iphone version for Listpro.
And money: for my bizz I do not care to pay some dollars extra. So pls start developing the Iphone version, and during that time: give us a reaer.
Thanks for your open approach!
Option #3 : )
I use a Mac for my personal computing, a PC for work computing, and an iPhone3G.
I was a longtime user of Listpro on my Dell ppc and often used the desktop version of listpro when I was still using pc’s at home. Once I switched to Mac’s, I haven’t used the desktop version of ListPro…but…I still used it on my Dell ppc. Then I switched to the iPhone3G and I downloaded one of the free, less-feature-full programs available. It gets me by with basic check lists and such.
I don’t like it nearly as much as I liked ListPro….however, it does offer one thing that I find very valuable:
The “desktop version” is actually a web-based app and the iPhone version is an app that can two-way sync with the web-app. Users setup a user account and then log in in either location (one-time setup required on the iphone) and voila….
I like it because I can manage my lists from any of the three devices I use daily.
If it were up to me, I would encourage you to migrate your “desktop” application to become a web-based application. Then, platform would be less significant.
A consumer that chooses to switch from ppc to iphone, or mac to pc, etc would be able to maintain support/usage of listpro regardless of device.
Sorry I didn’t pick either of your options…but…I’ve always been one to break the rules! : )
1 – A full-featured version of listpro would NOT be just like all the other list makers on the iphone. There is nothing even close to listpro for the iphone now. If there was I would be using it! Nothing I have seen can customize columns, filter and sync with a PC. Shoot, I’d be happy with any list maker that could sync with a PC. To date I haven’t found one. A full-featured ListPro for iphone would set a new benchmark for iphone apps.
2 – I would pay $20 for a reader this year to help fund development of the full-version next year then get a discounted upgrade to the full version when it comes out.
3 – a reader-only version would satisfy about 75% of my needs for the software. When I used in on my Treo it was almost always read-only anyways.
4 – What about a web-app version? hosted securely and accessible using Safari. I know that’s not ideal for most folks but would it be less expensive and faster to develop?
BTW…I have one other such program I use on my iPhone (not a list manager…just web based)…and I pay a $2/month subscription for the service. The company offers many pay-in-advance models…6 months, 12 months, etc.
If ListPro were a similar web-based app, with an iphone sync-able app, I would be willing to pay by the month or year for the online service…as well as an appropriate fee for the iphone app, etc….
Hey there,
I prefer solution #1, ListPro reader. My lists are extensive and complex so I tend to do the majority of my changes on the desktop. I’m more interested in simply having access to the information on the iPhone and not as concerned with being able to make updates to the lists from the device.
The ability to publish lists to the iPhone and read them would be fantastic.
I feel weird posting on here since I’m otherwise about ten feet away from Marc, but
Now that I have my iPhone, I’ve found that a combination of Toodledo.com and a syncing app on the iPhone (I’m using Toodledo’s app but I was using Appigo Todo) handles what I used to use ListPro for when I had a Windows Mobile phone.
I never really used ListPro as a reference list, only as a todo/shopping list. The thing that’s really useful for me is being able to manage my list in one place, sync to the iPhone, and check off items and have them go away from the desktop. I keep a running shopping list since I can’t always get everything at once, and if I had a read-only program on the iPhone, I’d have to manually reconcile my list when I got back to a PC. That’s not really going to work very well. I’m supposed to have all this computer stuff so I don’t do things manually anymore!
I would probably use the reader version, but I’d rather have two-way sync.
Not the news I wanted to hear – but understand your reasons. ListPro is the last piece of software that would allow me to move totally over to the iPhone from my WM device. I had even upgraded to the latest version in anticipation
My vote would be for route #1 but with two way sync of check marks if possible – with a move to a full version to follow. Although I’m really going to have to seriously look to see if any other apps will fulfil my requirements as I’m getting fed up with carrying two devices around just for the sake of on programme.
I’m a user of eWallet and am so glad that you ported this over so quickly. Please see what you can do on ListPro – even if it is a two stage approach.
Solution #1–nothing comes close to ListPro in any form.
I’m with djtal – I use it read-only on my Treo at least 75% of the time. That said, I actually sync with the desktop about once a month lately. I do a lot of beaming back and forth but rarely open WMDC simply because I sync the pim stuff with Exchange and a full sync for just files takes too long. I’m in favor of Michael Mullaney’s suggestion of (eventual) cloud synching for this reason.
I am just starting to use eWallet today and it looks good. If you feel that eWallet will be a long-term premier choice in each class of application, then there’s an advantage if Listpro can be bundled as a suite – new iPhone users who get eWallet (like me) may be inclined to get the other applets from the same vendor. I want to use the iPhone as my primary productivity device. So I would use the list reader initially perhaps, but would want the full version eventually. Even – if you could edit the to-do list on the iPhone with 1-way synch from the desktop (and no override of iPhone-created entries) that could be a good foot in the door.
I have too many ListPro lists on my Garmin iQue to give up updateable access to them. I will continue to use my Garmin until ListPro is fully available on the iPhone. Any reduced version on the iPhone is of no use to me. I have a couple of other apps on the Garmin that the iPhone can’t replace yet , so this is not a significant disadvantage to me at this time. Disappointing, though.
Option 1 is of zero interest to me. (And I’m surprised to see so many others stating a preference for #1.) I have a pocket device (currently iPhone 3G) to have something with me at all times that I can brain dump into whenever the thought strikes me, so I can modify my lists anyplace, anytime I need. Keeping ideas and list updates on scraps of paper, in another app, written on my hand, etc until I can get back to the desktop to enter them and sync them over to the phone… from my perspective, that is worse functionality than the free garbage that is already in the app store. Seems like if anything, this would establish a very poor foothold or reputation in the market.
I can appreciate that ListPro is complicated and might take longer to develop than first thought. For what it is worth, I don’t see anything that looks like competition yet, and I’ve tried to find a replacement, even purchasing a couple of list apps in the $10 range. The App store is still aching for a well-thought-out, robust, and flexible list app.
I wonder if there are other options besides the 2 you’ve listed? Like starting with a scaled-back product, but at a minimum, I think it would need to include a way to enter list items directly on the phone.
Or if you are seriously concerned about re-couping your iPhone ListPro development costs (which doesn’t quite compute to me… the current, quickly growing iPhone market looks less lucrative than the dying Palm or Windows Mobile market? Really?) maybe the answer is to scrap ListPro, and start with a new product specifically for iPhone. (Sacrilege!) For my needs, I would be happy with a well-designed list-making app that
1) doesn’t take 5 steps to enter an item;
2) supports nested lists;
3) let’s me manually sort or sort on field values; and
4) retains ListPro’s excellent checking AND flagging abilities, so I can quickly toggle which items are shown on screen without digging into submenus.
So maybe you sacrifice some of the calculations, compatibility with old ListPro files, the number or types of fields that can be used, etc, but you deliver something fresh and tuned specifically to the iPhone that trumps what is out there.
Thanks!
I too bought an iPhone assuming ListPro would be ported, and I’ll be bummed if it isn’t. Here are my comments and/or suggestions:
- Put out a read only version, so you can get folks interested in a future full version. Put some text in the application description in the App Store that tells folks a full version will be out, with your best guess as to when. Your serious competition will probably already have read this post, so you wouldn’t be telling them anything new.
- The iPhone is too darned tiny and low featured to do a decent job of creating new lists with any complexity. Maybe you can have a simple list creation tool on the iPhone.
- Syncing eWallet over WiFi is a pain for me, as my laptop is docked and hardwired most of the time. I have to remember to turn on WiFi, open eWallet on both my laptop and my iPhone, and then sync eWallet. This turns what was a one step process on my Treo to a multi-step process. Why the heck can’t you sync it over USB like the Treo? If this is what syncing ListPro will be like, then I probably won’t use it. I’m debating whether or not to dump eWallet for this reason.
- I like the idea mentioned by another reader about auto-syncing over “the cloud”. I guess this means via some Ilium server somewhere on the Internet. This would be worth a lot to me and might be a source of ongoing revenue for you – as opposed to a onetime software purchase.
I’d be happy with the first solution for now – if upgrades come later…
I first purchased ListPro and eWallet back in 1998 and they have been core mobile apps for me and am dearly missing ListPro… I have been and will remain a big fan of your work!
I would imagine it would be easier (and faster) to start from scratch with a basic iPhone app on which you can build increasing levels of functionality while taking advantage of the iPhone UI rather than trying to cram a WM app that was designed for a stylus into the iPhone and having to make a whole bunch of compromises that results in ’special features’…
It’s the simplicity of the iPhone’s UI that I find so appealing.
Will it be possible to have a mixutre of both solution. I seldom edit my eWallet over the iPhone. I do it on the desktop version. If ListPro could provide the “reader” function with limited features at the beginning, then you will have the time to add on new feature one at a time.
iPhone is handy but using it is not as simple as the keyboard. As you said, there are list software out there over the Apple App shop, they are not comprehensive at all.
By pushing a simple version with sync function, it wouldn’t cost you a lot of investment but offer you the time and opportunities to find out the response from the market.
Or, what about you simply forget the List Pro and start from scratch for a brand new List software?
Thanks for the update guys. I have the desktop version of Listpro (running on Windows under VMWare Fusion) and use it extensively. I’d be delighted if you implement option (1).
I found with my previous Pocket PC phone that I tended to use it for viewing lists whilst creating the lists on the desktop version. I don’t think this will change much with the iPhone – a viewer would be sensational and highly appreciated.
Option 1.
After that, syncing to the cloud is definitely the way to go.
I don’t need the functionality to make new lists on my iPhone or redesign lists (like adding new fields).
I do need syncing of updated data though in the long term.
sync with outlook tasks is a must.
I also don’t edit on my iphone…waaaay too hard on that itsy keyboard!
A reader that can sync one way with the desktop where I do my editing will do for now…..the full program came come later on…
To put this all into perspective before I purchased the iPhone I checked the Iliumsoft web site to see if eWallet and ListPro would be available and when I saw they were it was the deciding factor in my purchase decision.
Finally I communicated my thoughts about ListPro to Marc via email a couple of weeks ago.
Based on my usage patterns I will certainly use a first release which is a reader only as long as Iliumsoft commits to a fuller featured version (with Synch) in the not to far distance future. Also I am prepared to pay for it, I am not expecting it to be free.
While a “cloud sync” feature is interesting it is unlikely that I would use it, for the same reasons I use Quickens PC based products instead of their web based offerings.
Marc I am however puzzled. Your preamble to this discussion, and our emails, led me to believe that you were deep into development. Contractors are not cheap (I am one) so you must have incurred considerable expense already. The only way you will recoup that is by ultimately releasing an iPhone killer app of the eWallet quality.
So I think your question should really be, “If we release a ListPro reader (with the ability to transfer lists from the PC to the iPhone) ASAP will it keep our current ListPro users happy enough that they will first use it and second wait for our more robust offering.” Based on the previous responses I read the answer is overwhelmingly…yes.
Now if you want to survey your users to determine what features they would like to see included in the robust version I think that would be welcomed by your user community.
It is a shame that ListPro is proving to be so difficult because based on the quality of eWallet I have all sorts of suggestions for other products I would like to see you produce .
I can’t reply personally to everyone right now, but I have to say that your responses are fantastic. You’ve already given us a ton of great stuff to think about, you’ve helped me to focus some of my ideas, and you’ve exceeded my expectations.
Again, thank you for all the excellent, well thought out replies to my request. Feel free to keep posting! Also, once I’ve made a plan I won’t leave you in the dark about which direction we’re going!
I use both eWallet and ListPro extensively on my PocketPC. I bought the iPhone with the expectation that I could eliminate my Pocket PC and my separate cell phone. ListPro is the only hangout app right now – even though I don’t like using the app that allows me to transfer Word, Excel, and PDF files to the iPhone – since I can’t edit them there. I really think Apple is missing a marketing opportunity in not making the edit function available so that they can challenge the Pocket PC market.
I have eWallet now on the iPhone. I can see using the ListPro viewer if it enables me to somehow transfer my current ListPro lists from my PC to the iPhone for viewing. When I need to change a list item, I would just make a note in my iPhone notes and edit my lists on the PC before the next transfer from the updated PC ListPro list to the iPhone.
I have surveyed every list app on the iTunes store and none of them give the ability to sync with my PC and all data entry must be on the iPhone. Yes, there are a huge number of list apps out there, but they really aren’t competition for ListPro.
I recommend your doing the viewer with as much tested functionality that you can by the end of 2008. Then continue on to do the fully featured ListPro by mid 2009. To handle the development and maintenance costs, you just need to price the final product appropriately. I don’t think you are going to lose market share of any significance except for those folks who just want a simple To Do list with no meaningful backup. Of course, one can’t predict what other companies or individual developers will do in the time it takes Ilium to get the final product.
Past and Current eWallet user as well as a Windows Mobile ListPro user. I vote for a Hybrid option of 1 and 2.
Fully functional desktop version with 2 way sync to iPhone. Allow users to check off items on iPhone, but also to add new items to existing lists and categories and let these minor changes sync back to desktop.
If I have to pick just one, I could live with option 1 as I use listpro mainly as a shopping list. But there is always that “AHA” moment when you are out shopping and you need to add something to your list – maybe for another store that you will get later. This should sync back to the Desktop.
The problem I see with option 1 is that if I sync a new list, go shopping and check off things, then if I sync when i get home, I have the original virgin list on my iPhone with no record of what I have done or need. I think 2 way sync of some kind is a must have out of the gate.
I am not sure about the competition and if there is a business model for ListPro with all the other list apps out there. I have not tried any of the other list programs as my motto is ListPro or Die! like New Hampshire.
All I want is a List Program for the iphone that supports the following features:
1. Syncs with a PC
2. Supports outline type subtopics that can be hidden and revealed.
3. Allows a “completed” checkbox
4. Allows text notes for each TODO item
For me, everything else is fluff.
I am not aware of any other product that has these important features.
I still use ListPro on my PC. I don’t plan to give up my iphone and go back to a lesser PDA just to get ListPro.
If you release just the reader it will only appeal to people who already know the power of ListPro. However, it might also give people unfamiliar with ListPro the wrong idea about your product and your company if you made it widely available. I personally would not use the reader since I can’t update the notes on my iPhone. I’d rather stick with the simple text notes I’m using now.
On my iPaq I had a number of custom lists with date fields, priority fields, and stuff like that, along with all the usual to-do lists. The current crop of lists on iPhone don’t seem to offer the same flexibility. If I was the project manager I would be looking very closely at feature sets of competing products. If what you’re planning to offer adds substantial value over what’s there today (which I think it does) then you can do a pretty straightforward risk/reward calculation based on the assumption that you’ll still be ahead of the market in significant ways eight months from now.
I realize that the assumption you’ll still be ahead of the market in 8 months may not be a completely valid one. But that’s sort of what it means to be an entrepreneur, isn’t it? You pays your money, and you takes your chances. One thing that would help in this area is that you should consider, from here on out, the exact iPhone ListPro feature set to be a trade secret, so the other guys won’t get ahead of you. We, your loyal users, can work with a little vagueness for awhile because we know the wait will be worth it.
I’ve already figured out that, coming from the PPC world, the iPhone implementation isn’t going to be the same. However, I believe you when you say that you are looking at creative ways to overcome the UI limitations. So, like my old poker buddies used to say, “Go high, or go home!”
Best of luck,
Patrick
I really miss ListPro on the iPhone, but not enough to carry my old Treo around.
I would very much appreicate a ListPro reader on the iPhone, that would allow me to transfer my many lists from the PC to the iPhone and view them there. I can live without the edit function for a while. I would send myself an email to use in updating the lists on the PC. I sure hope the ListPro reader could be made available very soon. I would not expect it to be free.
Eventually, I would want to see a ListPro editor on the PC. The main functions I would want are the ability to add new records, to make minor changes to existing records, and to delete existing records. Creating new lists or making major changes to existing lists would not be high-priority functions. I could easily get along without those functions.
ListPro is the main thing I miss on my iPhone, along with a couple of applications I wrote for myself in NS Basic for the Palm.
I would opt for #1. I don’t know how fungible your resources are, but I would much rather see you spend time and money on improving eWallet for the iPhone, especially allowing syncing to the cloud instead of the cumbersome tethering process.
My personal experience with eWallet on the iPhone is that the data entry process is so tiresome (the phone’s fault, not yours) that I find myself deferring additions and changes until I get home. So, in effect, I have one-way sync anyway! I can’t see myself entering lots of data in ListPro on the phone either.
OPtion 1 if 2 will follow. With 1 though there should be a mac version.
I use List Pro on my PPC mostly as a checklist (although I sometimes make my shopping list in it) where make my items on the computer and check them off on the PPC.
I wouldn’t mind Option 1 (and I’d pay for it to help defray costs) if the checked off items could sync back to the PC. When the full version came out I’d pay for an upgrade.
I also like the cloud sync idea if it could be worked out cost effectively, but that would not be a deal killer for me.
Since I can still use my PPC (but wish to move away from it, I am also happy to wait.
I would like to see an OSX version of eWallet before I even see ListPro because I am getting by with Zenbe.
I would like to see Zenbe like features in ListPro…..this means I make or edit a list on the Internet and it syncs to my phone. Likewise if my wife edits a list on her phone….I want it to sync to mine.
I would also like to see it incorporate old lists because I have a model train colllection categorized in ListPro and I would hate to enter all of theat info again.
First and foremost I want OSX eWallet.
Solution 1 is acceptable if you include the ability to add items to a list. This would offer a solution that would fit the majority of users. My wife and I would be customers. We are already happy iPhone eWallet user.
GC
Would agree with the posting by PC. Would MUCH prefer a fully functioning ListPro for iPhone, even if it meant designing a new product from the ground up. Only one caveat, it must include a method for importing ‘older’ ListPro files as I have one with nearly 700 entries in and don’t want to re-enter them all again.
Another suggestion I would also like to see is the ‘cloud’ idea, this already works for me in a fashion as I have ListPro for Windows on two PCs (my work one and my laptop at home) and they both sync the ‘Documents’ folder between each other using SugarSync. Indeed, as SugarSync is now available for the iPhone, this might be worth looking at?
First the demographics. I have an iphone. I am a long time ewallet user. I have never tried ListPro
So from a selfish standpoint, of wanting ilium to stay financially viable so that ewallet will be maintained I vote for option #1.
I don’t know where the app store market will finally settle, but it amazed me to see how much people complained about software prices. There were $10 apps that I thought were a bargain because of what they do. But before the app store limited reviews to buyers of the software, all you saw were complaints about pricing.
But I guess option #1 would be sorta useless without synch which would leave you no choice but to go for a full port. I would say that if I were a ListPro user I would settle for no less than option #2.
Now excuse my while I go download another tip calculator.
First, I must say that I’m a little disappointed in reading this but I guess that’s par for the course. I use ListPro for work so most of the time I create from my PDA. Having to wait to get to my laptop to create a new list, add an item or simply change it’s status would make it worthless. I was hoping to not have to carry around my iPhone and a WM device for much longer but I guess I have no choice but to now.
That said. I personally would prefer Solution #2. A fully functional ListPro is an absolute necessity. The flexibility of how you can use ListPro and sync function makes it more than a mere list manager and more like a database manager. Those two reasons alone makes ListPro stand above all the other “Plan Jane” list managers out there for the iPhone.
Even with that I think most people would probably settle for a hybrid of Solutions 1 & 2 as long as a full featured ListPro was being worked on for future release.
Developing a hybrid solution allowing two-way sync, adding & changing of current items and checking off completed items from the iPhone with a full featured desktop client would be a good start. Porting over the full featured Windows Mobile version may cause undue delays just put in the necessary features including sync and update from there.
As you mentioned above, the programming of ListPro for iphone is very complex. Why construct the wheel twice? Ask CarbonFin for a licence of their app “Outliner” and develop this to an ilium-standard. This would speed up the development and would be in line with ewallet.
At the moment i test outliner. I have to say that it is a nice application.
I have an iphone with ewallet. Before i used a Windows mobile device with ewallet and ListPro.
I would like a reader. I maintain ListPro on my laptop but need to read it only on my iPhone. Full sync would e nice but updating on the iPhone will always be a compromise.