Last week I let you know that you are the Ilium Software advisory board. When we’re trying to determine the best course of action, we really listen to our customers. That said, we’ve got an assignment for you.
As you know we’ve been planning to release ListPro on the iPhone. Working with a contractor, we actually made quite a bit of progress. Of course ListPro, even though relatively simply to use, is an extremelycomplex piece of software. Anytime you offer the level of customization that ListPro does, you’re looking at a ton of work. Throw synching into the mix and you’re talking about a monumental task.
That said we’re faced with a bit of a dilemma and we want to get your feedback. So if you’re up to the challenge, read on after the jump!
The Challenges We’re Facing
At this point, were facing a number of tough challenges. Here’s what we’ve got:
1: Behind Schedule
ListPro for iPhone is running behind schedule. While we had expected an August release, we now find ourselves looking at a release with limited functionality closer to early next year. (BTW – Part of the reason I’m talking about this is for you folks waiting eagerly for it – I want to make sure that any expectations we give you are real ones.)
2: Boatloads of Competition
Had we hit the August release date, ListPro would have been an early entrant into the list maker/task manager market. Now, list makers in the AppStore are as numerous as tip calculators. This “business issue” affects our customers indirectly. If we release ListPro and it fails to make enough money to maintain it, you’re going to end up stuck with version 1.0 and that will be that. Furthermore, ListPro is a huge investment to develop which means it has to do really well for us not to lose money on it!
3: User Interface Limitations
ListPro on other platforms makes heavy use of drop down menus, right clicks, sub-menus, and more. It relies on these to present all the needed tools for customizing lists. The iPhone doesn’t lend itself to this style of UI. We’re pretty creative over here so we’ve got some good ideas, but the overall experience is a bit more complex (in a full featured iPhone version of ListPro) than anything else on the device.
4: Synching is Vital
With eWallet, you made it clear to us that sync is a vital component of the software. Couple this with the iffy (but hopefully fixed in 2.1) upgrade process at the AppStore, and we have the potential for problems. This means that the project really MUST include some form of sync on the date of release.
The Solutions
We have two solutions that we’re looking at right now. What I’d like from all of you is your thoughts on these solutions as well as any other ideas you might have.
Solution #1: ListPro Reader
In this solution, we release a simplified ‘companion’ to the ListPro desktop software. Depending on the level of functionality, it might even be free. This application would allow you to:
- Publish lists from the desktop over to your phone where you can read them
- Check/Flag items on the phone
- Sort, search, and filter
- Click live URL links
- Changes would not sync back to the desktop and there would be no other editing tools.
Advantages: Besides the fact that it would be free (you’d still need to buy the desktop version), it would take a LOT less time to develop this. We’d still be looking at a release date late this year at best, probably early next year, but it would be ready a lot sooner than a full featured version. In addition, it would lend itself very well to the simple UI common on the iPhone. Finally, it doesn’t try to compete directly with the gazillion list makers out there. It’s almost a portable database reader.
Disadvantages:It isn’t a full featured list maker and it doesn’t have all the features of ListPro. Also, it might fail to bring any new users to ListPro. It might even confuse people. A new iPhone product can’t work if it doesn’t bring in new users as well as carry existing users over.
The Future:If the product does poorly, we can still keep it out there for long time ListPro users, offering minor updates as needed. We’d still take a hit from the development costs but it wouldn’t be huge. If the product does well, on the other hand, we could slowly expand functionality over time – perhaps even offering true list making tools in the future.
Solution #2: Full Featured ListPro on the iPhone
In this solution, we do what we’d hoped to do before – port ListPro completely to the iPhone. In addition, we’d include synchronization letting users sync their files back and forth.
Advantages: We could offer all the cool stuff that has made ListPro so popular over the years to a new audience. In addition, we could help all out existing ListPro folks make a smooth transition to iPhone. Finally, I could use all my personal ListPro lists on my phone! 
Woot! IF the product sold well it could become a major part of our business in the years to come.
Disadvantages: It would take a long time. My conservative guess would be middle of next year. Also, this would be very expensive to build. There is a very real danger that new iPhone users won’t care about ListPro’s power and want nothing more than a simple maker (half of which are free.) If this happened, we’d probably end up losing money. Finally, the app might be so complex to operate on the iPhone that all that power makes it unusable.
The Future: If the full featured version doesn’t do as well or better than eWallet, this would be the first and last version. We just couldn’t afford to continue development. If it does well, we’d have another great platform supporting ListPro into the future.
So there you have it…
Your first assignment! Let us know what you think. How would you handle it if you were the Product Manager here at Ilium Software? We really look forward to your input.
I have not made the move to an iPhone because it doesn’t have ListPro.
I enter new items all of the time on my phone and a reader would not be enough for me.
As a long time user (5+ years) I too would like to see a viewer, I have many list that i use when I travel without a PC and could in the short term do without the update functionality in the short term in the hope a that the full product goes ahead in the medium term.
Graeme
I need the full version. I keep comparring ALL of the list programs to ListPro and frankly ListPro viewer does not compare to ListPro. I hate that I have to keep Axim around just to use my lists. And it looks a little silly to carry both my iPhone and my ppc. I am a mac user, and therefore am unable to use my lists on my computer. Please, please, please release the full version.
While I would love the full featured capabilitites of the ListPro I am used to using on my Windows Mobile devices on the iPhone and iPod Touch, it is actually the ability to import a list on the desktop and sync it to my mobile device that I trully miss. As long as this capability is included, it would meet the majority of my needs and keep me satisfied.
I appreciate your update as I have been waiting anxiously for the release of ListPro for the iPhone. Keep up the good work.
I have been checking your website almost every day for the last two months now for updates on ListPro, and at last here’s the answer to the “delay”. I would have hoped that a full working version would come soon, but I can understand that such an impressive app takes time to develop.
Add me to the list of people that really appreciates your update on this subject.
And add me to the list of people that prefer option 2. I would unfortunately not use an viewer, as I in 95% of the time uses my iPhone to make the lists. However, I will wait for ListPro to arrive, even if it takes 6-8 more months.
Keep ut the good work guys. I’m an eWallet user and been a fan of ilium since my first eWallet entry.
I’m not an owner of an iPhone nor I will buy one in the near future. I just like ListPro very much and want to tell you what functions I need most from ListPro.
Most time I create new Lists on the PC and then put them to the PDA to work with them. So the viewer as you explained it would’t be enough for me but there is no need for a full featured version with which you could create or configure new lists.
I would suggest a “Lite” version which has the functionality of the viewer you mentioned but with full 2-way sync. Additionally the possibility to edit and create new items is a must have.
My first response upon hearing the news was to go to the ap store and look for a good to do list ap. The problem is that after using ListPro on both a Pocket PC and the desktop, the other programs just don’t measure up. I like the fact that an item in ListPro can have sub-items under it, that I can create templates that can be used over and over again, and so many other things that would take too long to list.
Having asked many times for an update in these forums, while being disappointed at the answer, I have learned to appreciate the honesty that Marc displays.
As to what option I would propose, while a viewer would be better than nothing, I want to create, add and check off items on my iPhone and sync it to my PC. Much like Markus in his post above, I would suggest a version with the basics that you can add functionality to in the months following release.
I know there are risks and rewards in any venture. Your product has a big following already, and if it done in any way like eWallet was, it will be a success. Please strongly consider going ahead with the project, coming out with a syncable version with the basics in early 09, and then add to it as you go along. If you come out with a Mac desktop version at the same time, you will increase the chances of your success.
In my prior response/comment above, I avoided “naming names” about competative softwares because while I immediately switched to something else upon reading this blog entry, I was less than happy with the results. I still won’t name that software.
However, I think I should now say that I think that by taking so long, Iluim may have just lost the market. DDH, who I think is probably Ilium’s main competitor for this type of software, has just released their handheld relational database app for the iPhone, with optional desktop syncing. AND it’s a fully functional application where the user can edit and create lists on the go, it’s not merely a database viewer as Marc has proposed for ListPro.
I’m currently saving lists I need to read on the iPhone into eWallet notes. Maybe another option would be to automate that on the PC – so I don’t have to cut and paste so much. Dave
As a casual user, I’d prefer a two tier setup. This is without considering the business case though.
Both with sync and full featured desktop version.
Rather than a reader, I’d want a “lite” version on the iphone as I would simply use it for minor edits, checkboxes, etc… I don’t need the full editing abilities on the phone. Call this the consumer version.
For heavy users, a later release of the “Pro” version with all the bells and whistles and cloud sync etc…
Perhaps with consumer and pro pricing tiers?
I am so impressed and a little disappointed.
Great that you are so honest, but disappointed that one of my favourite mobile programs is so far away.
I use it daily and only committed to an iPhone when I found out you were developing it and eWallet for that device. ListPro is just brilliant, I enter data on the road and sync it with my home PC on return. As I enter data on both my WM and PC I need a full version, a reader is better than nothing, but entering data while it is fresh in your mind is much better.
Is it possible/easier to make a basic data entry only version that does not allow you to customise the lists on the iPhone but does allow you to enter data and sync it? Any changes or new lists would need to be done on the PC.
That would be fine by me, what does any one else think?
Great work and great products guys…
ListPro is one of the two remaining programs I want to see make the PPC to iPhone transition so that I can leave my Windows Mobile device at home most of the time. eWallet helped whittle that list down, and I’ve been very happy with it – I’m really hoping for a ListPro that makes the transition with the same style.
My usage tends to involve using the program on both PDA and PC for entirely different lists, and only syncing a much smaller portion of them between the two. I could easily change my working practices to do all the list creation on the PC, but I’d still want to be able to add or edit entries on the iPhone – sometimes you don’t get everything right before you leave home – and have a way of syncing back the important ones so I didn’t lose those changes. So what I’d like to see is a simplified version of ListPro (rather than a reader) as soon as possible, with the full feature set following along as soon as it’s feasible to develop it.
One thought that occurs – I tend to upgrade software when I switch PDAs, rather than every time I get a new release, so I’m still running ListPro version 4.1. If/when there’s a ListPro that syncs to desktop (assuming the same model you’ve used for eWallet sync), I’d then be looking at upgrading all my versions to the current one (including the PDA). Presuming I’m not the only one in this situation, the revenue that the iPhone version would bring in wouldn’t only be from the iPhone app itself. Especially as I also use a Mac nowadays and would be happy to buy a desktop client for that as well as upgrade the PC one.
I don’t, I confess, have much interest in a version that syncs to the cloud. I want my data on my own machines.
I have a few thoughts…
- Choice one is of limited value as there are already several ways I can get simple “lists” to my iPhone to “look” at.
- Choice two would be far and away the best as I could use my existing lists and not have to re-invent the wheel. It would also set you apart from the rest of the market.
- Please DON’T go to a subscription based model. I hate these – having to pay multiple places each month. These are generally a deal-breaker for me and cause me NOT to use a product. I would much rather pay more up front (maybe even $100) to have a product that works and I don’t have to mess around with subscriptions. I HATE them.
- Synching via a “Cloud” does sound like a good option as long as it is guaranteed secure… A lot of us keep very sensitive information in these lists.
- How about another option… How hard would it be to make some type of ListPro to eWallet converter to let us “convert” our existing files to a format you already support on the iPhone and back? This actually might be a very viable possibilty if you could come up with a naming conventions for the Wallet “cards” that was easily recognizable as coming from the lists…. Just an idea….
- Far and away the application I am missing the most on my iPhone is ListPro. It’s a great product and worth the wait for us all!!! Keep up the good work (just do it faster
I’ve been a use of both eWallet and ListPro, and synced by WM PDA with WIndows PCs at home and at work. It has worked well for me.
Now I have switched to an iPhone, and love it. All of the list programs I have seen so far are a little stripped down. Okay for now, but I need more.
If I can choose only one option, I’d have to choose the second one. I need to be able to update information on the iPhone. But, if I could have a reader sooner, I’d go for that, assuming that the full version comes later.
First, I definitely support having the complete solution of Listpro on Iphone/Ipod touch. It was a factor in purchasing an Ipod Touch that Ewallet and Listpro would be available.
I’ve been using Listpro and Ewallet for several years on a Pocket PC and Windows computer. Recently I have migrated to a Macbook (which I love) and the biggest downside of that was that I didn’t have access to your software except on my computer at work.
The Ipod Touch is a replacement for my PPC, which was stolen while I was traveling and I am looking forward to again having access to ewallet and listpro in a portable form.
Marc,
Great post – as someone who works in product development I completely understand the choices you were weighing up. I think its good to educate everyone on the thought processes that go on behind the scene.
I’ve been using Listpro for many years on Windows Mobile based devices. I recently bought an iPod Touch and might get an iPhone one day.
I would go the lightweight option as v1. As you note, there is a lot of competition out there, and Listpro is one of those programs that you don’t fully appreciate until you start using (and relying on) it.
Sure, as an end user I would love to see full functionality – but I personally won’t wait until middle of next year before chosing something.
First of all, thanks for your sincerity expressing your problems in the development.
This is the second time an application I’m waiting for the iPhone is delayed (what shows the difficulties to port a complex application to this device).
My preferred option is #2.
Most of the applications in the AppStore (including the “Lists” ones) are in general crap.
I was an user of ListPro in my PDA and when I saw you were porting it to the iPhone it was a great news for me.
I don’t completely understand why you are going to release a full-version of ListPro. My approach would be to develop a version with limited functionality (at least one that makes the difference, to me the ability of selecting the fields of a list). A improve it over time with added functionality (even establishing price for the update).
This will allow, first, to position the product among the existing ones; and second, to start receiving cash.
good luck!
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I haven’t read all the above comments, but I thought I’d add my two cents. I apologize if what I write may be covered by others’ comments.
Based on the great experience I’ve had with eWallet and Ilium’s statement that ListPro for the iPhone would be available later this year, I downloaded ListPro for my PC and have spent many hours loading a life’s worth of notes into it in anticipation of its release. The time I’ve spent is worth much more than whatever price the ListPro iPhone software could cost. I’m willing to pay almost any amount of money for it. Even a primitive version of ListPro that only allows minimal edits, but which syncs with ListPro on my computer, would be fine. Most serious editing occurs on the computer, not the iPhone; the iPhone isn’t designed for inputting significant amounts of data. Anything just to get my current lists on the iPhone. Copying all my lists into another program, no matter how good it is, will take a lot of time. And, as we all know, time is money.
So please release even a very primitive version of ListPro for the iPhone ASAP, so those of us who’ve spent all this time won’t feel abandoned by Ilium!
And by the way, since I didn’t have a specific mobile platform for ListPro, I had to download a trial version, and my time is running out for it! Is there any way I can extend my trial version?
By the way, I think eWallet for the iPhone is actually too good. I appreciate the time Ilium has clearly spent on it, but, as I mentioned above, no one spends a lot of time hand-inputting information into his iPhone–a device that doesn’t even have “cut and paste.” All that’s really necessary is to simply sync with the more sophisticated version on one’s computer. That’s what an iPod does with iTunes, and no one complains! So Ilium, you’re a great company, but you need to lower your standards a bit and get this one out! It’s clearly a case in which anything is better than nothing.
Marc,
First, I want to commend you and your company for having some of the finest customer service by phone, e-mail and feedback to your customers that I have seen anywhere. Thank you. I would like to echo the comments of your first responder above, Michael Mullaney.
Being a recent (this year) convert to both iPhone [from Palm] and Mac, I have had a need to move the two most used apps to the iPhone. I am truly sorry to report that due to the delay in ListPro and eWallet to an iPhone/Mac sync, I have had to [temporarily, I hope] use your competitor applications for both needs. Probably will switch back when yours are updated, thus this visit to your blog.
Rather than choose options 1 or 2, I prefer to list my own objectives and let you draw your own conclusions as to how you can target your product. Please know that I sincerely believe that for me, your applications are superior to the others on the market due to two features; capability & simplicity. My suggestion, keep it simple with just enough features for the user to stretch a bit. Here are my objectives:
1. Cloud sync with iPhone & Mac.
2. Easy edit checklists from both iPhone and Mac
3. Priority (1-2-3) ability.
4. Sacrifice the bells and whistles to get your simplified version out meeting the above objectives.
Don’t worry Marc, your customer base will follow you as your new format evolves. Most of your competition is either making a checklist along with chess games or trying and failing [at the cost of the user] to develop a very complex milestone application. The latter is hiding behind the proverbial wizard of Oz curtain and won’t even answer the phone.
We just need your tried and true program to carry into our new gadget.
Keep up the good work!
I too very much appreciate you being so candid and honest with what challenges you are having with ListPro for the iPhone.
I was reading the responses, feeling disappointed, until I got to Steph’s post. I completely agree with what Steph said! I too, have invested much time and energy in creating lists and templates and would prefer to be patient for the fully useable version to come out. I really think it will be worth the wait. I have completely scoured the app store for anything even close to ListPro. There is nothing even remotely close. I know that there are many many highly organized people out there that thrive on total organization, like I do, and would jump all over the “well worth waiting for” ListPro full version. I don’t like the thought of waiting, but would rather do that than have something that will frustrate me and send me off to one of the “lesser” list apps. I encourage you to please persevere and know that good things come to those that wait. Don’t put out something that will frustrate people. I would rather use the notepaper on the iphone and be very very patient.
Thank you for listening and all of your great hard work!!
Kim
Hey, everyone!
Just wanted to thank everyone again – we are working on a good solution and will let everyone know our plans in the near (I hope!) future. Just wanted to make sure you knew we didn’t just table the issue!
- Marc
PS: If you’re in the U.S., VOTE VOTE VOTE!!!!
I’m really late getting to this discussion, but here are my two cents. First I’d like to thank you for the honest appraisal of the situation.
I am not really interested in option #1. I understand the problems with option #2 but I would intend my iPhone to become the primary instrument for updating the information stored in ListPro.
I would still be interested in a 3rd option, a new version of ListPro for the iPhone as long as there was a similar application for my desktop and some method of transferring my current lists over to the new application. I could live without some of the features, I was happy with the first version I used many, many years ago, but I can’t imagine using the product without full sync between the iPhone and a desktop version. I also think there needs to be some method to share and sync lists between iPhones.
I look forward to hearing your disision. I have been waiting for ListPro, but if you are going with option #1 I’ll have to jump ship and look for another solution.
Thanks,
Carl
The answer to developing ListPro for iPhone should be ostensible.
* Both ListPro and eWallet are the best apps ever developed for PPC.
* Apple developers of “list” or “task” apps are unexplainable idiots.
* There are NO good list/task apps for iPhone as of 11/08/08.
Business users want to switch to iPhone. We have to sacrifice much in switching platforms. Many of us are willing to make those sacrifices because iPhone is a superior interface. The primary sacrifices going from WM devices to iPhone are as follows:
* No cut and paste
* No Outlook Task sync
* No Outlook Notes sync
* No “Phat-Notes” or “ListPro” style database manager
Simply put, if you put out a full featured ListPro for iPhone you will address all of the above listed issues and many more. You will make EVERY bullshit list/task/memo app available currently for iPhone OBSOLETE with ListPro.
I think that ListPro is such a valuable and versatile app that I would spend up to $100.00 just to have it on my iPhone. Unless you purchased the iphone as a toy to use like a PSP, this application is a quintessential MUST HAVE. I know- I have been using these devices heavily for 13 years from Palm Pilot to PPC to WM to iPhone.
We shouldn’t have to tell you how good this program is. Your past platform sales (hell from Handango alone) should speak all the truth you need about your projected bottom line.
Please do not waste anymore time developing this full featured application for the millions of serious iPhone users out here still suffering from a real lack of professional software for this device.